Big news! Billy is a dad! Because of that, the email exchange below almost replaced the podcast this week. But Billy and Dave managed to sneak into the studio during one of Billy’s daughter’s naps, and here we are with a new episode! Is it a little late for this week or a little early for next week? You decide!
But before you enjoy the podcast, please enjoy the following email exchange between Billy, Dave, Nick (occasional Tuesday Night Comics guest host) and Bryan (Billy’s cohost on The Billy and Bryan Show) about The Killing Joke, Alan Moore, John Byrne and Supergirl.
From: Bryan
To: Billy, Dave, Nick
Subject: Newswire: Mark Hamill and Kevin Conroy reunite for Batman: The Killing Joke animated film [feedly]
In the words of Joe Biden, this is a big fucking deal, right?
From: Nick
To: Bryan, Billy, Dave
I would normally be excited about something like this but man, do I hate the Killing Joke.
From: Bryan
To: Nick, Billy, Dave
Oh yeah? I thought it was one of the big ones. (I mean, if I’ve heard of it, it must be something.) Do most people like it?
From: Nick
To: Bryan, Billy, Dave
It is one of the “classic Batman stories” but I don’t like it – I think I’m probably in the minority, though. I definitely do not need to read a story featuring (technically) children’s characters where (spoilers for a nearly 30 year old comic) Batgirl is paralyzed and possibly sexually assaulted and Commissioner Gordon is sodomized by circus people, all in the quest of being “edgy.” Again, though – people do seem to like it, and it is Alan Moore and the art is great, but…yeah. Not my thing.
COMICS EVERYBODY
From: Dave
To: Nick, Bryan, Billy
Yeah, I think it does a lot that has influenced Batman and the Batman seen in other media but as the decades pass there a parts of it that really don’t hold up. Especially the stuff that Nick points out. I do want to read it again because it has been ages since I have read it. I remember reading and article and I think Alan Moore uses rape quite heavily in his work.
From: Dave
To: Nick, Bryan, Billy
This isn’t the article but it does give a good list of all the rape/sexual violence scenes:Let’s look at it by the numbers. There’s been an instance of sexual violence (much of it shockingly offhand and quickly dismissed or forgotten) in every major work Moore has written and in many of his minor works. Every volume of The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen contains one instance of sexual violence (almost all aimed at Mina Murray). Lost Girls, his long germinating erotic adventure, veers between joyful sex and sexual violence so rapidly that I found myself wondering (however momentarily) if Moore even remembers the difference between the two. Neonomicon, his ode to Lovecraftian horror, features a grizzly rape. Tom Strong, his attempt to write an old-fashioned superhero comic has a rape (which is actually played as a punchline).
Even his earlier works (which in my opinion tend to be better than his offerings from the last ten years) have a disturbing pattern of sexual violence. Watchmen, V For Vendetta, Killing Joke, Miracle Man each features a scene of sexual violence. And while many of these were treated with seriousness and humanity, still others were, in my opinion, both unnecessary and ultimately insulting.
http://www.unleashthefanboy.com/comics/contrarian-fanboy-alan-more-whats-with-all-the-rapes/47048
From: Nick
To: Dave, Bryan, Billy
Yeah, I’ve seen a few articles like that – from what I can tell, he’s used rape as a”motivating factor” in a majority of his work. I know I’ve seen it in almost everything of his I’ve read (except for Supreme and the ABC stuff).
From: Nick
To: Dave, Bryan, Billy
Oops! I guess there was rape in the ABC books (Tom Strong, although I don’t remember it and don’t think I’ve read the whole series). Good times, I guess!
From: Dave
To: Nick, Bryan, Billy
Well. lets not forget the Gooser in Top Ten.
From: Nick
To: Dave, Bryan, Billy
Crap, you’re right. I figured that if it was going to happen anywhere in those books, it would’ve been in Top Ten. Honestly, I’ve found that I like Moore’s stuff less and less as I get older. Although I did re-read Watchmen over the summer (for the first time in like a decade, probably) and liked it more than I had previously. But still. There’s no rape in “For the Man Who Has Everything,” right? I still love that one.
From: Dave
To: Nick, Bryan, Billy
Hmmm. I don’t think so but now I want to reread.
From: Dave
And I agree about Moore.
From: Dave
I’m sure someone would have been raped if he did the revamp instead of Byrne:
From: Nick
To: Dave, Bryan, Billy
Jeez, Louise, John Byrne. I follow a Twitter account called “John Byrne Says” that basically just posts art and the ridiculous things he says on his forum (so you don’t actually have to read his forum) and yesterday he said:
…because I guess because she is Kryptonian she wouldn’t be affected by light? *THATS* the reason he can’t watch a TV show. This is a grown man who makes snide comments about “fanboys” and yet posts things like that. He also believes there’s a worldwide conspiracy of retailers purposefully not ordering his comics, so that they can then tell people that his comics don’t sell and that’s why they don’t order them.
To: Nick, Bryan, Billy
Hah, because John Byrne, the actress who plays her is human and humans naturally squint and a reaction to a bright light. Imagine on set someone was like stop squinting Melissa you are Kryptonian! Also when does a Kryptonian become a robot and not a super strong human? And couldn’t you just fanboy science it the other way for a no-prize? She was using her super vision and then was caught of guard by a bright light. She had to squint. I think fanboy arguments like that help move the characters of Superman/girl to unrelatable.
From: Billy
To: Dave, Nick, Bryan
John Byrne’s an idiot. Kara was squinting because she was using her x-ray vision to get a better look at the driver. Duh. Now give me my No-Prize. Crap, wrong company.
I’ve found that I liked The Killing Joke much more when I was 12-14 and needed comics to be cool and edgy and “NOT FOR KIDS ANYMORE!” That said, I recently read Moore’s Swamp Thing for the first time and loved most of it, and both Dave and I really like Miracleman Vol 1: A Dream of Flying (which we talk about on last week’s episode of the Tuesday Night Comics Podcast, free on iTunes #shamelessplug). Now, Batman: Year One, on the other hand, only gets better every year.
Hmmm…Instead of a podcast this week, maybe I should just post this email thread to Tuesday Night Movies? (Violet Jubilee says hi to everyone)
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